百年悬案“双象难题” 孙 立

zzk132

百年悬案“双象难题” 孙 立 当今在象棋残局界“车炮仕对车双象”当双象方车不受限制时，其胜、和规律至今还无人能够总结出来，因其“棋形”转换空间广阔而浩大，犹如万花筒中动则裂变的画面，其“形”变无穷；其复杂变数亦如树中枝杈分支繁多，繁杂难点又如无头乱线，数不清、理还乱，至使前辈残局大家望其难而确步，遗下“百年悬案”之难题。 笔者年初在《棋艺》设立“探索‘棋形’与‘技巧’在残局中的联用”专栏，误闯入其禁区领地，只好摸着石头过河，逢劫涉险，期盼劫波散尽，劫后逢生之日，便是揭开“百年悬案”之时。愿与爱好者共同见证“百年悬案”之梦想，拓展“形图腾”的飞跃。 第一局 接图1，是“车炮仕对车双象”黑车不受限制而构成的“棋形”局面。观“形”可知黑车所处位置偏重于归家防守，红只要发动精确攻击 “形”、“技”联用亦可步入“胜形”。续拟红攻法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图1 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742245343405043332402474922293848292848472858[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment14]至此，构成“待判棋形”续接着法见第二局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment14][DhtmlXQ_comment11]当“棋形”出现无进展“待判形”时，利用子力的流动，改变“棋形”的结构，已达到向“优形”转化的目的。本着切入点选择精妙，把红“棋形”引入佳境。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]22523748[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_11]红速胜势。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_11] [/DhtmlXQ] 至此，构成“待判棋形”续接着法见第二局。 第二局 如图2，是第一局结束而构成的“棋形”局面，观“形”可知黑方弱点有二：其一，双象边位相连；其二，肋线低位车。如何利用“棋形”中黑方的弱点，运用技巧时攻击是破难局的有效手段。本局，“技巧”在“棋形”的指导下“形”、“技”合一联用，构成绝妙精典之作。续拟红攻法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993747999999994999999999999958992099509902999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title] 图2 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]3330505130315150374858524737022437382442[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment10]至此，构成优势“棋形”续接着法见第三局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment10] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_8_1]52223133225233305051303151503738[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_8_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_15]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_15][DhtmlXQ_comment1]进车点将，控制黑方3如底象飞中是本“棋形”的关键，一旦黑底象移至中路相连，将构成“例和”之“形”，由此可见“棋形”在棋战中的指导作用至关重要，并充分验证了“形”乃战略方案的拟定者，“技巧”乃战略方案的执行者，“两者合一”构成破解残局难题之最高境界。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1] [/DhtmlXQ] 至此，构成优势“棋形”续接着法见第三局。 第三局 如图3，是第二局结束而构成的“棋形”局面。续拟红攻法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3199994838999999994999999999999952992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图3 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]313752583730505130315152495958683133525133535141594941405333405033305051303151523133525133535141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment24]至此，续接着法见第四局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment24] [/DhtmlXQ] 至此，续接着法见第四局。 第四局 如图4，是红方通过多种“棋形”的转换，构成第三局结束时的“胜形”局面。续拟红攻法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]5399994838999999994999999999999968992099419942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title] 图4 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]535020025030022430314140313340413334240234040220040141400131686631332002485766464948[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment21]至此，红方成功的把黑车牵制在中路，构成必胜残局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21] [/DhtmlXQ] 至此，红方成功的把黑车牵制在中路，构成必胜残局。 本“棋形”是笔者专栏待发稿件，其“棋形”转换与“技巧”合一，构成精典残局例局 结 束

yjr123

根据残局库分析，所拟着法有软着、缓着。

http://lpforth.forthfreak.net/xiangqi-js/xiangqi.htm?2E2K392R1E43r59993b1c33k59

zzk132

华工网十年华诞，笔者奉上六局佳构。本意是支持组办者为棋排事业所奉献出的赤诚，相信此举将在棋史上留下深深印迹。实用残局只评十局，笔者作品如入选，自愿放弃奖金。请承办者将十局奖金发给其它棋友。 另(棋艺)封面棋局己正常运行，本次活动评委，请奉上佳作刊登在(棋艺)封面上留作记念。 孙 立

yjr123

按照残局库分析，本局虽然可以取胜，但受60回合不吃子的限着，在实战中双方都走正着，则仍然要判和。

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会心斋

残局库“车炮士胜车双象”最复杂局面，红方需要88回合才能吃子取胜。按“60回合自然限着”的规则，和棋。 [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_title]车炮士胜车双象最复杂局[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_event][/DhtmlXQ_event] [DhtmlXQ_date][/DhtmlXQ_date] [DhtmlXQ_place][/DhtmlXQ_place] [DhtmlXQ_round][/DhtmlXQ_round] [DhtmlXQ_table][/DhtmlXQ_table] [DhtmlXQ_red][/DhtmlXQ_red] [DhtmlXQ_redteam][/DhtmlXQ_redteam] [DhtmlXQ_redrating][/DhtmlXQ_redrating] [DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time] [DhtmlXQ_black][/DhtmlXQ_black] [DhtmlXQ_blackteam][/DhtmlXQ_blackteam] [DhtmlXQ_blackrating][/DhtmlXQ_blackrating] [DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_remark][/DhtmlXQ_remark] [DhtmlXQ_author]会心斋[/DhtmlXQ_author] [DhtmlXQ_binit]5399993759999999996299999999999961990299309960999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_movelist][/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment0]“车炮士胜车双象”最复杂局面，红方需要88回合才能吃子取胜。按“60回合自然限着”的规则，和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule] [DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype] [DhtmlXQ_owner]会心斋[/DhtmlXQ_owner] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype] [/DhtmlXQ]

zzk132

余老师： 本“棋形”是一环扣一环的“棋形”转换难局，多“棋形”转换是电脑软件的盲点，就此局而言，你用残局库总结出60多回合胜法。关于象5退7之变，其实用人脑很筒单速胜，因我认为象5退7简单也是没列出的原因吧！列红速胜法分述如下： 例1局 [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title] 例图1 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]335350405747426053636082634340504333504047492229334340503848292848472858434050514020585747485737202151502122[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment27]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment27] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]82643334[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_11]胜法更简捷。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_11] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_8_2]403043333040[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_8_2][DhtmlXQ_comment2_10]与主变类同。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_10] [/DhtmlXQ] 例 2 局 如图例2局，是残局库生成的“棋形”局面，黑方在“棋形”转换所依附的支撑点是平中兑车，那把其支撑点拔掉又如何呢？笔者拟红续攻着法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]2399993738999999994999999999999932996099409902999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title] 例图2 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]23636082634340503848325243445051443452584847585237480220343151504737826437386442[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment20]以下胜法参见、笔者拟第三局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment20] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]515048385259493959523748[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_15]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_15][DhtmlXQ_comment7]点晴妙手！控制了双象的移动。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7] [/DhtmlXQ] 结束语： 从上述分析可看出，软件对复杂“棋形”转换时抓不住重点，还解不开非连照高难残局。笔者对残局库一无所知，不对见谅。另本“棋形”原打算作“形图腾”2有奖征答。因本月笔者业务太忙“双象难题”稿急故推出。 孙 立敬上

yjr123

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[DhtmlXQ_title] 例图2 [/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment2_20]以下胜法参见、笔者拟第三局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_20]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_15]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_15]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]点晴妙手！控制了双象的移动。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
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yjr123

残局库着法有将军凑数的弱点，对棋形转换可能会有一点小问题，但要找出它的问题也不是那么容易的。

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[DhtmlXQ_title] 例图1 [/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment11]胜法更简捷。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16]红方有什么简洁胜法？[/DhtmlXQ_comment16]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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yjr123

残局库是采用穷举法建立的，所有合法棋步都会列出，结果可能会因为棋规问题而与实际结果不一致，但对辅助研究价值极大，孙先生不会发贴却能够看到棋盘，大可利用残局库来攻克此难题，可大大提高效率。

残局库用法：
点击2楼的链接进入残局库，棋盘右边是着法列表，点击某着法即走子，着法有*号的就表示残局库推荐着法，孙先生可以在轮到红方走时点击你认为的最佳着法（也可以直接点击棋子进行走子），而轮到黑方走时，却一定要在带*号的着法中挑选比较人性化的着法，然后把着法记下来，看需要多少回合能够取胜。

zzk132

余老师： 前天上午齐市有几位要好哥们来到我处玩，我接待他们，刚刚送走，昨晚才在网上看到您发贴子，迟复为歉。 如图，是你提出的第八回而转换成的“棋形”局面。问有什么简洁胜法？可以说这是例2局的继续。笔者拟胜法如下： 例3局 [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3499993738999999994799999999999929992099509982999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title] 例图3 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]34842922845450404749[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment5]至此、黑有两主要应法(一)车3平4、(二)车3进7 这两种(棋形)胜法与例1、例2局类同。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_1]826084646082646229896222[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_7]红得象胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_7] [/DhtmlXQ] 至此、黑有两主要应法(一)车3平4、(二)车3进7这两种(棋形)胜法与例1、例2局类同。 孙 立

yjr123

标注“胜法更简洁”后就省略了后面的着法，是否可以理解为省略时的局面20回合内即可得子胜定？那列一下完整着法更能够说明问题，不要循环套，说这是例2局的继续，却又回到例1、例2。

yjr123

又看了一下1楼取胜的回合数，4个棋图是连贯的，一共35回合没有吃子，但图4的最终形势根据残局库分析，还需要31回合才能够吃到子取胜，按60回合自然限着仍然应该判和。

zzk132

在(百年悬案)一栏又见余老师的考问。一个愿考问，一个愿应答，一个愿代发，三个自愿者，继续着对末知的探索及追求。自信是对本次评选的支持及对象棋难题研究的再深入，并为本次评选活动增加了亮点。 关于笔者所拟第一局至第四局，合计为35回合。余老师认为：从第四局终结(棋形)开始，经残局库分析需31回合才能够吃到子取胜，按60回合自然限着，仍然应该判和。笔者在创作之初没有考虑到自然限着问题，为此，笔者从新研究认为：第四局结束时留下的(棋形)不好，虽可中路牵车，但必须左帅右移，右仕左移，方能取胜；要考虑到自然限着因素，须调整第四局着法。为此从新续拟第四局着法如下。 第四局 如图4，是接续第三局而构成的(棋形)局面，续拟红攻法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]5399994838999999994999999999999968992099419942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title] 图4 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]5350200250300224303468664857664649482402383741403430404130364645362641512621515021414535374735384142[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment25]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment25] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_1]414026220224222040412024[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_23]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_23] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]68623032022448574151323151503133[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2][DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11] [/DhtmlXQ] 孙 立 2013-09-25 19:42

yjr123

问题主要还是在前面2个图的着法，图1的第2回合象5进3应改为象5退7，图2的第3回合车6退6应改为车6退4。

zzk132

本栏“双象难题”(棋形)发出后，笔者认为“象5退7”变化简单而没有录入。承蒙余老师提出，其实本“棋形”存在两大体系变着：(一)象5进3、(二)象5退7，现通过第五局、第六局列出。又因有些攻法在前已经讨论过，笔者又拟一新的攻法，本变考虑到自然限着问题，在形成“胜形”棋形之际，构成简胜之形。 第五局 接图1，第二回合黑象5退7（图5）的红攻法如下： 第六局 如图6，是第五局第17回合黑改走象7退5而构成的(棋形)局面。续拟红攻法如下： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]6299993748999999994999999999999924992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图6 [/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]62525040485824444948403052503031505544475535314135324140322240304838304038184737181020022242403058480224424030311030[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment29]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29] [/DhtmlXQ] 孙 立 2013-09-27 07:31

yjr123

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]图5 [/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]335350405747426053636082634340504333826433342228383928293938648234328264326229244749505162632429494464826361515061622924444982643848505162632454[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_59]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_59]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33]妙手、是步入胜形、对后棋形的必要选择。[/DhtmlXQ_comment33]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]504047492229334340503848292848472858434050514020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_21]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_21]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_2]6482474922293848[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_15]红借杀得象胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_15]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4]图5[/DhtmlXQ_comment4]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_34_3]20426252504048582444494840305857444652503031505464825434314134364645366641316661313061414555574755584142[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_34_3]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

zhaodi

回复4楼余兄，及15楼孙兄参考
我认为15楼孙兄指出的”   其实本“棋形”存在两大体系变着：(一)象5进3、(二)象5退7，现通过第五局、第六局列出。”两大体系是有道理的，即象5进3与退7.本人将研究所得贴出，请指正。

一、4楼余兄的象5退7着法，我认为还有可商榷之处，即可以红速胜。

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]图1 [/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742604749223253542002546460826444405038483252497952584849585949485952797052584849585949485952444050517050[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_7_1]53232002234340304939324243833040838042623748626980836949834340503837022037476042432350513929496929596979232579692535514147376967373867273839274735384746594946263835200248572646494841513555514155520224393846475250240250000224000747440737415137315150383744463133464533535040535645444846444357482402373802243839240248374030464843475636304039494050365650404959403056363040360602240600404100302402595802243034240234040220042441312434314134324746585741403231464531512002512140302141455557470224483855353835[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_7_1][DhtmlXQ_comment7]zhaodi注[/DhtmlXQ_comment7][DhtmlXQ_comment2_15]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_15]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_2]4030493902203848[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_2][DhtmlXQ_comment29]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment29]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

二，将我研究的解法粘贴如下

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_title]无标题[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_event][/DhtmlXQ_event]
[DhtmlXQ_date][/DhtmlXQ_date]
[DhtmlXQ_place][/DhtmlXQ_place]
[DhtmlXQ_round][/DhtmlXQ_round]
[DhtmlXQ_table][/DhtmlXQ_table]
[DhtmlXQ_red][/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_redteam][/DhtmlXQ_redteam]
[DhtmlXQ_redrating][/DhtmlXQ_redrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_black][/DhtmlXQ_black]
[DhtmlXQ_blackteam][/DhtmlXQ_blackteam]
[DhtmlXQ_blackrating][/DhtmlXQ_blackrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark][/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author][/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]3353504057474260536360824749223263232002234340504344022044545040542420022444405038483252497952584849585949485952797052584849585949485952444050517050526240440220445462525052[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0][FEN "2b2k3/9/2r1b4/3R5/9/9/9/3A1C3/3K5/9 w"][/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment43]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment43]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner][/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]


为此，我认为  象5进3应为主变。着法准确性还未研究。（目前暂未考虑60回合限着问题）

yjr123

看来残局库推荐的着法还是有些问题，我研究的完整着法：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]无标题[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]3353504057474224534340504333240247492229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285837485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%26page%3D1%26extra%3D%23pid218450[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

zhaodi

回复楼上，黑还有顽强着法


[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]无标题[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742245343405043332402474922283839[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285837485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1][DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]


再者，楼上象5退7变，有规则问题。

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]无标题[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742605363608247492229634340503848292848472858434050514020585747485737202151502122375722825758484758594748595848475859[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_16]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4224534340504333240247492229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]残局库按亚规判和，按大陆规则黑需变。 这是孙兄提出的。呵呵。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32][DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_1]37485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_1]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

zzk132

昨天(双象难题)栏，余老师又拟出象5进3体系中的新变，随后赵殿忠棋友又提出商讨着法。笔者试拟出其商讨“棋形”后面的黑续拟应法，不妥请二位教正。本“棋形”用图一、图二方式列出，区别在第6回合黑有两变。 图一，第6回合黑车3平6变例： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图一[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742245343405043332402474922283839285837482042393802203330505130315152495958683133525133535141594941405333405033305051303151523133525133535141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285837485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10] [DhtmlXQ_comment38]以下续接笔者后拟的第四局（图4）胜法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment38] [/DhtmlXQ] 以下续接笔者后拟的第四局（图4）胜法。 图二，第6回合黑车3退2变例： [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图二[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]335350405747422453434050433324024749222838392826335350403748204248572646494802203938464753524041525020025000022400074746073741513734240238375150345450405456464548464041373841403839404157484140483740304648454756363040394940503656504049594030563630405958022036324041323020023000022400034140032340302333304033324041323424023404022004244131243431413432414032224030483830403818473718102002224240305848424030311030[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285837485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10] [DhtmlXQ_comment102]红海底捞月胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment102] [/DhtmlXQ] 孙 立 2013-09-28 10:44

yjr123

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]图一[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]3353504057474224534340504333240247492228383928583748204239380220333050513031515249195868191242643130200230505242504042521219525119496866404151504144[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285837485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]图二[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742245343405043332402474922283839282633535040374820424857264649480220393846475352404152502002500002240007474607374151373424023837515034305051303151503141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285837485852[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_102]红海底捞月胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_102]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_37_3]345450405456464548464041373841403839404157484140483740304648454756363040394940503656504049594030563630405958022036324041323020023000022400034140032340302333304033324041323424023404022004244131243431413432414032224030483830403818473718102002224240305848424030311030[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_37_3][DhtmlXQ_comment30]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment30]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

zzk132

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图二[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]3353504057474224534340504333240247492228383928263353504037482042485726464948022039384647535247453837454652564645484645433738434538394543574843454837403046482002563630403949405036565040495940305636304059584547360602200626403026363040363240413230200230000224000341400323403023333040333240413234240234040220042441312434314134324140322240304838304038184737181020022242403058480224424030311030[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285843405051402058574748573720215150212237572282[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10] [DhtmlXQ_comment97]红海底捞月胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment97] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_25]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_25] [/DhtmlXQ] 孙 立 2013-09-28 20:55

zzk132

余老师： 图二，低级错误以改过；图一，第17回合黑改走象1进3结果怎样呢？另12回合黑还有象5进3变化？ 孙 立

yjr123

zzk132 发表于 2013-9-28 23:05
余老师：
     图二，低级错误以改过；图一，第17回合黑改走象1进3结果怎样呢？另12回合黑还有象5 ...

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[DhtmlXQ_title]图一[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10]
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yjr123

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[DhtmlXQ_title]图二[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_25]红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_25]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D31529%23lastpost[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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zzk132

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3399993738999999995799999999999922992099509942999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]图一[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]33535040574742245343405043332402474922283839285837482042393802203330505130315152495958683133525133535141594941405333405033305051303151523133525133535141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2]4260536360824749222963434050384829284847285843405051402058574748573720215150212237572282[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1]2229384829284847285833305051303151504919581831342042345450401949181649481615475715455450404150514140512140302141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment10] [DhtmlXQ_comment38]以下续接笔者后拟的第四局（图4）胜法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment38] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_25]红胜定（不能按亚洲棋规，否则这个难题失去研究的意义）。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_25] [/DhtmlXQ] 孙 立 2013-09-29 07:03

zzk132

      余老师：
       图一，11回合黑可应象3进1，变化怎样？
       图二，20回合黑走车5进2是否可有简胜？
                                            孙 立 2013-09-29 09:22

yjr123

完整着法

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[DhtmlXQ_title]双象难题[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment16]残局库结论是还需47回合可得子，没有自然限着问题。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_10]先将一军，[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_10]
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会心斋

26楼  “红胜定（不能按亚洲棋规，否则这个难题失去研究的意义）。”
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建议还是首先考虑探索放之四海皆为准的“完胜”着法；然后再退而求其次“按国内规则胜”。这样探索实用残局才更有普遍意义。

yjr123

会心斋 发表于 2013-9-29 11:15
26楼  “红胜定（不能按亚洲棋规，否则这个难题失去研究的意义）。”
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建议还是首先考虑 ...

没有牵涉到棋规吧