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[排局诠正] 请大师们根据着法,推定棋图!

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发表于 2023-3-25 17:24:41 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-3-25 19:13 编辑

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
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[DhtmlXQ_adddate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_adddate]
[DhtmlXQ_editdate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_editdate]
[DhtmlXQ_title]北京日报出版社《百局象棋谱》(1990年)四寇擒王[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]这是原局图、着,已经多次核对无误。图势近似:心谱-五虎争雄、百局-五虎下川、竹谱-大五虎(三局同图)。||||所列为全部着法,且无注解。从其着法来看,图势肯定有误,但不知该如何更正。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0][DhtmlXQ_comment43]至此结局,未标明胜、负、和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment43]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.dpxq.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.dpxq.com/hldcg/search/index.asp[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator][/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
发表于 2023-10-10 14:20:19 | 显示全部楼层

原谱着法16回合取胜不成立,错误棋步不止一处。怎样尽量保留原谱着法?并且不少于16回合?试改如下:

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
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[DhtmlXQ_binit]9955999939999910204734999999999904006099524142381446705964283748[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_pver]130606[/DhtmlXQ_pver]
[DhtmlXQ_adddate]2016-06-30 18:55:10[/DhtmlXQ_adddate]
[DhtmlXQ_editdate]2016-06-30 18:55:10[/DhtmlXQ_editdate]
[DhtmlXQ_title]邓崇律遗作《象棋排局大观》第二集134局(时鑫 试改)[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_length]189[/DhtmlXQ_length]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_hits]275[/DhtmlXQ_hits]
[DhtmlXQ_sortid]11012590[/DhtmlXQ_sortid]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]老鸽子[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_oldowner]老鸽子[/DhtmlXQ_oldowner]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]4757465655435636345436565424562643552656553456263453265624224132537256367260525120215150103136312120505160725152205031515051[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_26_1]313020305051607251417253[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_26_1]
[DhtmlXQ_move_1_30_2]51523050[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_30_2]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator][/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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 楼主| 发表于 2023-3-25 21:08:12 | 显示全部楼层
[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]5399299959994799429999999999623199996499504120994899529928385746[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_pver]130606[/DhtmlXQ_pver]
[DhtmlXQ_adddate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_adddate]
[DhtmlXQ_editdate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_editdate]
[DhtmlXQ_title]北京日报社《百局象棋谱》鄱阳大战[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_oldowner]老鸽子[/DhtmlXQ_oldowner]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment28]和局[/DhtmlXQ_comment28][DhtmlXQ_comment0]与流行版本相比,本局将原2•9位兵移至3•8位||为同型局中少见。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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[/DhtmlXQ]
发表于 2023-3-26 00:29:10 | 显示全部楼层
[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]5399299959994799429999999999623199996499504120994899529928385746[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_pver]130606[/DhtmlXQ_pver]
[DhtmlXQ_adddate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_adddate]
[DhtmlXQ_editdate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_editdate]
[DhtmlXQ_title]北京日报社《百局象棋谱》鄱阳大战[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_movelist]4252415253574656575650405652[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_28]和局[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]与流行版本相比,本局将原2•9位兵移至3•8位||为同型局中少见。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_1]578764828782486882805051808151506261686181613848314152416160505160664152665628385652514152322042[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_1][DhtmlXQ_comment7]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator][/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
 楼主| 发表于 2023-3-26 07:33:41 | 显示全部楼层

红方若有中相,黑方应有八路底卒。
发表于 2023-3-26 08:34:13 | 显示全部楼层
老鸽子 发表于 2023-3-26 07:33
红方若有中相,黑方应有八路底卒。

八路底卒有什么用处?
发表于 2023-3-26 08:46:43 | 显示全部楼层
8路底卒的用处就是红要换一种胜法
发表于 2023-3-26 09:10:37 | 显示全部楼层
根据老鸽子的修改意见,加8路卒,再做适当调整可和
[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_adddate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_adddate]
[DhtmlXQ_editdate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_editdate]
[DhtmlXQ_title]鄱阳大战  老鸽子修改[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_owner]老鸽子[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_oldowner]老鸽子[/DhtmlXQ_oldowner]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist][/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator][/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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发表于 2023-3-26 10:32:43 | 显示全部楼层
[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]8599999949996999868799632061317058996499509942474099993803239908[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_pver]130606[/DhtmlXQ_pver]
[DhtmlXQ_adddate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_adddate]
[DhtmlXQ_editdate]2017-11-25 00:04:25[/DhtmlXQ_editdate]
[DhtmlXQ_title]北京日报出版社《百局象棋谱》(1990年)四寇擒王[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_owner]老鸽子[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]这是原局图、着,已经多次核对无误。图势近似:心谱-五虎争雄、百局-五虎下川、竹谱-大五虎(三局同图)。||||所列为全部着法,且无注解。从其着法来看,图势肯定有误,但不知该如何更正。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_43]至此结局,未标明胜、负、和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_43]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_17_1]825242325250383949484766814140413141081850303949304066546252232469474939472924252907252652425442404239494244[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_17_1][DhtmlXQ_comment21]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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发表于 2023-3-26 13:00:11 | 显示全部楼层

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_title]北京日报出版社《百局象棋谱》(1990年)四寇擒王[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_event][/DhtmlXQ_event]
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[DhtmlXQ_movelist][/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]棋图应是这样吧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
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发表于 2023-3-26 14:32:06 | 显示全部楼层
如果原棋图错误,而着法也不正确,则要推测出原图,几乎不可能,也没有意义。
发表于 2023-3-26 16:12:44 | 显示全部楼层

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
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[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]棋图应是这样吧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
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[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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发表于 2023-3-26 22:15:32 | 显示全部楼层
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[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_length]82[/DhtmlXQ_length]
[DhtmlXQ_class]象棋谱大全-古谱残局[/DhtmlXQ_class]
[DhtmlXQ_event]竹香斋象戏谱[/DhtmlXQ_event]
[DhtmlXQ_round]三集[/DhtmlXQ_round]
[DhtmlXQ_date]0000-00-00[/DhtmlXQ_date]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_hits]7267[/DhtmlXQ_hits]
[DhtmlXQ_sortid]404000[/DhtmlXQ_sortid]
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发表于 2023-3-27 10:26:44 | 显示全部楼层

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[DhtmlXQ_length]82[/DhtmlXQ_length]
[DhtmlXQ_class]象棋谱大全-古谱残局[/DhtmlXQ_class]
[DhtmlXQ_event]竹香斋象戏谱[/DhtmlXQ_event]
[DhtmlXQ_round]三集[/DhtmlXQ_round]
[DhtmlXQ_date]0000-00-00[/DhtmlXQ_date]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_hits]7267[/DhtmlXQ_hits]
[DhtmlXQ_sortid]404000[/DhtmlXQ_sortid]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]象棋谱大全[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_oldowner]象棋谱大全[/DhtmlXQ_oldowner]
[DhtmlXQ_comment69]这样会如何?[/DhtmlXQ_comment69]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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 楼主| 发表于 2023-3-27 15:00:01 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-3-31 09:30 编辑

谢谢诸位大师们诠正!标题局最大的不同是红相位置。

叶底三五(心谱-五霸尊周、五虎争雄、五将失道)类局,古谱中有十来局(包括同局),都是七路底相,唯有“百局-四寇擒王”是三路底相;现代有正式刊载的改局有二十余局,也仅有1局是三路底相,有些特别,所以我才关注,在这里帖出。

 楼主| 发表于 2023-3-27 15:52:23 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-3-27 16:17 编辑

根据原谱图着,8楼、11楼推定的棋图都不错!我在这里想请教的就是三路底相版本所能带来的新变,谢谢!
发表于 2023-3-27 21:16:47 | 显示全部楼层
老鸽子 发表于 2023-3-27 15:52
根据原谱图着,8楼、11楼推定的棋图都不错!我在这里想请教的就是三路底相版本所能带来的新变,谢谢!

七路底相,黑有压相眼进中卒的可能,而三路底相,黑中卒几乎没有中路突破的可能。
而大五虎属于红优排局(红方主动稍优),黑方本来就较被动。

如果黑中卒不起作用,红方优势更明显。
 楼主| 发表于 2023-3-27 21:30:15 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-3-28 09:00 编辑
凌云子 发表于 2023-3-27 21:16
七路底相,黑有压相眼进中卒的可能,而三路底相,黑中卒几乎没有中路突破的可能。
而大五虎属于红优排局 ...

红方本就稍优,也难怪很少有人用三路底相改图!

本局因有三路底相限制黑方进中卒,故删去中卒可能不是漏刻,而是经过考虑的。但随之出现另一个问题:造成将帅露脸,黑方中马动弹不得,红方速胜。

发表于 2023-3-28 15:30:37 | 显示全部楼层
图1中说“原局图、着,已经多次核对无误。”     但19回合卒在相眼,红走不了相七进九啊。
发表于 2023-3-28 15:59:29 | 显示全部楼层
古婺 发表于 2023-3-28 15:30
图1中说“原局图、着,已经多次核对无误。”     但19回合卒在相眼,红走不了相七进九啊。

意思就是和书上的棋图和着法多次核对,书上这么走,他就这么录。
2023-03-28_155644.png 2023-03-28_155829.png
 楼主| 发表于 2023-9-11 14:18:58 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-9-11 17:32 编辑

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[DhtmlXQ_comment7]原谱着法:帅四进一,棋图或着法显然有误。现只好改为帅四退一。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7][DhtmlXQ_comment6]据此着推定原图:||红帅位置应退一?||九路黑炮位置应退一?[/DhtmlXQ_comment6][DhtmlXQ_comment8]以下为原谱着法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8][DhtmlXQ_comment25]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment25][DhtmlXQ_comment0]香港梁利成拟,马兵胜全子局。图或着有误,详见第六着注。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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发表于 2023-9-11 14:41:34 | 显示全部楼层

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_7]原谱着法:帅四进一,棋图或着法显然有误。现只好改为帅四退一。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_6]据此着推定原图:||红帅位置应退一?||九路黑炮位置应退一?[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]以下为原谱着法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_25]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]香港梁利成拟局,马兵胜全子局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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 楼主| 发表于 2023-9-11 17:28:16 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-9-11 17:35 编辑

是啊,谢谢!本局原设计是缓手杀局,但顶帅离卒太近,一看就觉得有问题,只是没去仔细推敲。
 楼主| 发表于 2023-10-9 06:28:46 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-10-9 06:37 编辑

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_13]红虽优,但着法似乎还很漫长。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_13][DhtmlXQ_comment0]本谱于1987-1988年间由蜀蓉棋艺出版社出版,共五集五册,系现代比较优秀的早期创作性棋谱。所选棋局应是四、五十年代的作品。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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发表于 2023-10-9 08:02:28 | 显示全部楼层

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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]本谱于1987-1988年间由蜀蓉棋艺出版社出版,共五集五册,系现代比较优秀的早期创作性棋谱。所选棋局应是四、五十年代的作品。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]败着[/DhtmlXQ_comment7][DhtmlXQ_comment8]这样如何杀?||||应该炮6平3叫杀黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment8][DhtmlXQ_comment9]败着!应该马三退二吃马胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9][DhtmlXQ_comment13]红虽优,但着法似乎还很漫长。||||哪来的红优,黑象吃车后,红方立即崩溃。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13]
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 楼主| 发表于 2023-10-9 13:26:09 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 老鸽子 于 2023-10-9 14:00 编辑

黑方落象吃车后,我曾试走了一下,好象红方能吃回黑车。只要把黑将逼至四路,红马八退七即可抽回黑车。
发表于 2023-10-9 16:18:58 | 显示全部楼层
老鸽子 发表于 2023-10-9 13:26
黑方落象吃车后,我曾试走了一下,好象红方能吃回黑车。只要把黑将逼至四路,红马八退七即可抽回黑车。

能够吃回车?

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]本谱于1987-1988年间由蜀蓉棋艺出版社出版,共五集五册,系现代比较优秀的早期创作性棋谱。所选棋局应是四、五十年代的作品。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]败着[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8]这样如何杀?||||应该炮6平3叫杀黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]败着!应该马三退二吃马胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13]红虽优,但着法似乎还很漫长。||||哪来的红优,黑象吃车后,红方立即崩溃。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13]
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 楼主| 发表于 2023-10-10 17:24:54 | 显示全部楼层
sdndsx 发表于 2023-10-10 14:20
原谱着法16回合取胜不成立,错误棋步不止一处。怎样尽量保留原谱着法?并且不少于16回合?试改如下:

非常谢谢,基本保留了原有思路,不错!本谱棋局数量近千,又是无网络时代创作的,图、着错误难免。

此外,余老师指出的问题(吃回黑车),今天下午我弄了半天也整不出来了。
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