百变象棋谱诠正六国和秦

dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-22 10:53:57

《百变象棋谱》第42局三军争舟
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[DhtmlXQ_comment31]红炮换双卒胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]《韬略元机》“昭君出塞”“匹马从戎”《渊深海阔》“弓雷马电”棋图完全相同，《棋谱秘录》也收入，都是和局。近日看到一本书谱诠为红胜，特提出来请大家探讨。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_17]和局（原谱着法）[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]这是《竹香斋》的走法，因原谱增加了黑1.7位卒，黑谋和不难。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11]这就是新看到的走法。《竹香斋》是走炮四进三，和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12]这是书谱的走法。改走士6进5呢[/DhtmlXQ_comment12]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_2]5041455341525334514134554748565258595259484939384959[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]
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chouzhouyu · 发表于 2019-1-22 12:14:11

本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2019-1-22 12:23 编辑

我棋库中红炮四进一后，黑下步是士6进5。查了一下棋库。发现有象棋桥软件后，其作者提供的韬略元机象棋谱中的匹马从戎就是以该路为主变。东萍棋库中应该基本上是该路着法。

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2019-1-22 12:25:20

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[DhtmlXQ_title]第42局  三军争舟[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]分类:单车马炮类.||元谱83局昭君出塞,元谱21局匹马从戎,百变42局三军争舟,渊谱147局弓雷马电,秘录和44局.竹谱一2局海树波平(1817年版)||||[FEN=3a1a3/4k4/9/9/9/9/4N4/9/3K5/9 b - - 0 9]百变原谱着法，和。[/FEN]||||||||[FEN=3a1a3/5k3/9/9/9/4N4/5C3/4p4/5p3/3K5 b - - 3 6]拆解局面。[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]弈至该形势，红方已立不败之地。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_16]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_9]这是《竹香斋》的走法，因原谱增加了黑1.7位卒，黑谋和不难。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_11]这就是新看到的走法。《竹香斋》是走炮四进三，和局。||||||[FEN=3a5/4k4/9/9/9/9/4N4/9/1C2pp3/3K5 b - - 16 16]某诠注本中的红胜着法，待拆。[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment3_11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_23]及时回马，明智之着。如硬要贪胜进攻，则徒劳无益，结果后防空虚，反要输棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_30]捉死马和定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_28]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_32]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_21]马后炮杀，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_26]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_27]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_12]这是书谱的走法。改走士6进5呢[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_31]红炮换双卒胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_37]单马必胜单士。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_21]得卒胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment10_21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_16]    ③正着。如误走将6进1，则炮五平四，将6平5，炮四进六吃士后，很容易一炮换双卒，形成匹马擒单士必胜的残局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_29]    和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_19]    吃士后，很容易一炮换双卒，形成匹马擒单士必胜的残局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_13]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_13]    和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_11]    吃卒，红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_15]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_15]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_9]    吃卒，红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_9]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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chouzhouyu · 发表于 2019-1-22 12:35:47

街头象棋150局中有该局，选择这路变化，不过其后续走法可能有问题，没有走成一炮换双卒的变化，走和了。

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[DhtmlXQ_title]  第100局江岸一战[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_remark]王光州杜翊王万民[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]    夏游九江时，江岸一群人围观此局，黑马卒宫内要杀，红方虽然不易轻解，但有车马炮兵的攻杀之势，经过激战，还是成和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]    ①正着。另有两种着法：||    其一，士5进6，车六退一，士6进5，车六平五，将6退1，车五退七吃卒，红胜定。||    其二，马6进8，马六退四，马8进6，车六退七吃卒，红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]    ②正着。亦可走马六退五，卒6进1，马五退四，士5退4，马四退二，卒6平7，帅六平五，和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16]    ③正着。如误走将6进1，则炮五平四，将6平5，炮四进六吃士后，很容易一炮换双卒，形成匹马擒单士必胜的残局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29]    和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_19]    吃士后，很容易一炮换双卒，形成匹马擒单士必胜的残局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_13]    和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_11]    吃卒，红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_9]    吃卒，红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_9]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-22 16:20:37

本帖最后由 dave7788 于 2019-1-22 16:22 编辑

嗯，看的书比我多。
古谱中有许多重复的棋局，因此，有一局错了或者诠错了就涉及好几局。我最近看的诠注本就将“三军争舟”“弓雷马电”“昭君出塞”“匹马从戎”以及《棋谱秘录》中的相同局都作为红胜啦。

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2019-1-22 21:04:22

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[DhtmlXQ_title]第57局六国和秦一路变化[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0][FEN=3k5/2P1C4/4b3b/9/9/6B2/6p2/B8/5p3/4K4 b - - 0 12]百变原谱着法，和[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12][FEN=3Ck4/2P2P3/4b3b/9/9/9/1c6p/B3p4/5p3/2B1K4 w - - 17 14]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19]早期诠注本认为该变可红胜。后白宏宽有一路和棋着法，感觉也有问题。||||[FEN=3k2PC1/2P6/4b4/9/9/4c1B2/3p5/B8/5p3/4K4 b - - 0 18]红胜1[/FEN]||||[FEN=4k1b2/3P1P3/9/9/2b6/6B2/3c2p2/B8/4C4/3K5 b - - 2 16]红胜2[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27]这样黑炮没办法再平中了。只能长打兵。[/DhtmlXQ_comment27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]黑方应该是长打，须变招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment37]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_40]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_35]紅勝。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_29]紅胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_31]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_35]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_23]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_23]不变作和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_28]还原到前面第6回合时的局面。形成死循环了。||||该局这样循环判和吗？或前面不变作和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_28][FEN=3Ck4/2P2P3/4b3b/9/9/9/1c6p/B3p4/5p3/2B1K4 w - - 17 14]相同局面，还原到主变中（前面第6回合走该着）[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment8_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_23]还原。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_34]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment10_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_32]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11_32]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-23 08:58:31

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[DhtmlXQ_title]六国和秦一路变化[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]杨明忠前辈认为这样走是红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1][DhtmlXQ_comment9]双方不变，全国比赛现行象棋规则怎么判我不清楚，觉得按旧规应该是和局（诠注古局不能按国内现行的严格规则判，还是按《湖涯集》“四寇擒王”的规则处理比较贴切）。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D55099%26page%3D2[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-23 10:23:08

看了一部新书，写的非常好！书中引用的古局不多，但用我们这些推敲排局并傻傻叫真的人来看是有问题的，比如《适情雅趣》中的“七擒七纵”，我们认为薛丙的意见正确，应该是黑胜（错局），新书中依然作为和局。如果说和局的结论不对，那么，按亚洲规则，确实可和。去年，世界规则诞生，甚得好评，说是以后的亚洲比赛、世界比赛均采用。我想，世界规则与亚洲规则可能很接近吧。

聨吟客 · 发表于 2019-1-23 10:38:37

dave7788 发表于 2019-1-23 10:23
看了一部新书，写的非常好！书中引用的古局不多，但用我们这些推敲排局并傻傻叫真的人来看是有问题的，比如 ...

亞洲規則也是不允許走動炮架長捉無根子的

世界規則?我就不清楚了

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2019-1-23 11:12:56

还是第6回合走炮2进3，最后不变作和列为主变较好。

yjr123 · 发表于 2019-1-23 12:42:59

dave7788 发表于 2019-1-23 08:58

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[DhtmlXQ_title]六国和秦一路变化[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]3136[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_1]杨明忠前辈认为这样走是红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_9]双方不变，全国比赛现行象棋规则怎么判我不清楚，觉得按旧规应该是和局（诠注古局不能按国内现行的严格规则判，还是按《湖涯集》“四寇擒王”的规则处理比较贴切）。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1]这样红胜吗？[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D55099%26page%3D2[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-23 12:45:11

本帖最后由 dave7788 于 2019-1-23 13:11 编辑

亚洲规则陈先生熟悉.我没有看亚洲规则,只是在书谱上看到"一将一杀""一将一捉"等双方不变作和.关于37楼棋例,我的理解是黑捉和红杀的问题,不是单方长捉.
至于"六国和秦"结果是和局应无疑.85本认为炮2进3是劣着,我看是正着,在诠注本心武残编"双辖投泉"(与六国和秦相相似中已经作为主着法了.

dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-23 13:05:56

象棋规则十分复杂.全国比赛中出现棋例纠纷时,时常有当值裁判解决不了交由裁判组研究的,判定之后也出现棋手虽服从但仍保留意见的.
编写象棋书谱涉及到棋例时,作者的处理不尽相同.哪本书作者的意见也不可能符合所有读者的胃口.我的意见是诠注古谱以"两打一还打"不变作和为基础,特殊情况(比如蚯蚓降龙)加以说明.

dave7788 · 发表于 2019-1-23 13:19:47

本帖最后由 dave7788 于 2019-1-23 14:01 编辑

yjr123 发表于 2019-1-23 12:42

高！说到了点子上。
[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_title] 六国和秦[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment30]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment30]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_1]30405141404121314140313040418381[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_9]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_9]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_7_2]3438161938394647[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_7_2]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_3]46473000403029471646476586760002826002327666323166564939462631364224072524022507022407252442250742240725[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_12_3][DhtmlXQ_comment3_37]黑方不变作负，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_37]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_26_4]565751504636317158487170[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_26_4][DhtmlXQ_comment4_31]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_31]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_19_5]00017666514146410141[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_19_5][DhtmlXQ_comment5_23]和局（原谱着法）[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_23]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_6]464739195848495947571918426429474858594957472120[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_6][DhtmlXQ_comment6_25]红胜（1985年诠注本的走法）[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_25][DhtmlXQ_comment3_27]余俊瑞先生的走法！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_27]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D55099%26extra%3Dpage%253D1%26page%3D2[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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聨吟客 · 发表于 2019-1-23 20:25:41

dave7788 发表于 2019-1-23 12:45
亚洲规则陈先生熟悉.我没有看亚洲规则,只是在书谱上看到"一将一杀""一将一捉"等双方不变作和.关于37楼棋例, ...

嗯
長捉對長殺大陸規則和局

亞洲規則卻長捉方敗

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-3-1 21:12:34

同驷马车很相似的一则局。载于象棋排局例典。

[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_title] 第17局逐鹿江湖[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_event]象棋排局例典[/DhtmlXQ_event]
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[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_1_78_2]445204344132483850413414523314133354131131301141[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_78_2]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_1_16_7]4959644439494434413257475041342470624737493937383949242041502021313021515041516162546141[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_16_7]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment16]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_17] 单车对马双底卒双士结局如何?尚无明确定论。其实，只有马在己方士角位，将与马同处一侧，双底||卒于另一侧连结才可和局;另外，单车被马双士三子围困于黑将位置，亦可和局。此外，单车方多有获胜机。此时棋势，红方就可取胜，胜法相当曲折微妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_67] 以上一段着法，红方目的是逼黑方撑右士，以便后来运帅至六路盯住黑方4路卒时，使得黑方各子没有闲着可走，、此为本局最微妙之处。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_67]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_89]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_89]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_87]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_87]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_79]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_79]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_51]下着黑方有两种走法:[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_57]红方胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_57]下同主着法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_37]破士后，红方胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_31]捉双，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_31]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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[排局诠正] 百变象棋谱诠正 六国和秦

[排局诠正] 百变象棋谱诠正六国和秦