《象棋残局大全》中的一局车炮士对车双象质疑

zhaodi · 发表于 2014-7-14 20:13:02

如下图，是《象棋残局大全》第520页第三节车炮士对车士象的例一局
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[DhtmlXQ_title]第三节车炮士对车士象1[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_author]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0] 红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。|||| 车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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此局着法大家看出来有什么问题吗？

邢春波 · 发表于 2014-7-14 20:56:40

5回合黑改走车5平6

zhaodi · 发表于 2014-7-14 21:04:59

邢兄说得对，如果第5回合，黑走开中车，将是和棋。

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[DhtmlXQ_title]第三节车炮士对车士象1[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_author]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]     红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。||||     车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]484649424643393843454244454744464749464749594767[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2][DhtmlXQ_comment12]||妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12][DhtmlXQ_comment17]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment17]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D32591%26page%3D1%26extra%3D%23pid230746[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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迟暮寒士 · 发表于 2014-7-14 22:14:35

从上述着法看来，红方第2步弃士，看似妙手，实则劣着。正着是怎样走的？

zhaodi · 发表于 2014-7-14 22:25:19

车炮士必然可胜车双象，这个结论应该是正确的，但并不是轻而易举的就能获得胜利。
如1楼棋图，确实是红胜，可是怎么胜呢？很费周折的取胜着法。

奇蹟三號 · 发表于 2014-7-15 22:31:22

贾题韬曾有探討车炮士胜车双象

奇蹟三號 · 发表于 2014-7-15 22:36:08

亦可參考举鼎争功

一卒擎天 · 发表于 2014-7-16 13:12:06

邢兄说得对，如果第5回合，黑走开中车，将是和棋。[/quote] 6回改走车五退一将6进1，车五平三能胜否？

聨吟客 · 发表于 2014-7-16 20:09:46

嗯,很曲折深奧也~!

聨吟客 · 发表于 2014-7-16 21:11:55

弄了幾變,不妥處還望大家指正

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3299993739999999994899999999999946994299409960999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]第三节车炮士对车士象1[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_author]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_author] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]484946473748474832304041306041516040485840415152494758484737482839494220414328583730525130605852434151506020[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1]47673234[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment0] 红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。|||| 车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_owner]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_owner] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]484649424643393843454244454744464749464749594767[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_12]||妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_12] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3]4042585242485232483832383938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3] [DhtmlXQ_move_7_16_8]28214757422039495251404320424342[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_16_8] [DhtmlXQ_move_7_26_9]26217271[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_26_9] [DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_10]525177702002394928224041515041432252434050517050523240430220435332525052[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_10][DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]58564140563639494224475752514041515041442442444250514243363243533252575251505262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7]5828414042204777282277722226394952514041515041432656727056527020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4]5857414052514042[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_6]282237774264777222244143245472705251434151504140505170505434404364424342343150603121424321226050[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_6] [/DhtmlXQ]

zhaodi · 发表于 2014-7-19 19:33:01

孙立先生发短信，对陈兄的着法提出异议，认为弃士和棋。
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]     红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。||||     车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]484649424643393843454244454744464749464749594767[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_12]||妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3]4042585242485232483832383938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3]
[DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9]26217271[/DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7]58484737482839494220414328583730525130605852434151506020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7][DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]58564140563639494224475752514041515041442442444250514243363243533252575251505262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_11]2226394952514041515041432656727056527020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_11][DhtmlXQ_comment20]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment20]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D32591%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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聨吟客 · 发表于 2014-7-20 09:50:40

多謝指正,這樣修改走法可否? [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3299993739999999994899999999999946994299409960999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]第三节车炮士对车士象1[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_author]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_author] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]4849464737484748323040413060415160404858404151524947582847772827777027373949374749394746704046454131426031334555334352513949608240708264434151504140505170505535404464424442353150603121424321294948295943415150414050516050[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1]47673234[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment0] 红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。|||| 车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_owner]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_owner] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]484649424643393843454244454744464749464749594767[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_12]||妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_12] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3]4042585242485232483832383938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3] [DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9]26217271[/DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7]58484737482839494220414328583730525130605852434151506020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]58564140563639494224475752514041515041442442444250514243363243533252575251505262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4]5857414052514042[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4] [DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_6]282237774264777222244143245472705251434151504140505170505434404364424342343150603121424321226050[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_6] [DhtmlXQ_comment12_20]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_20] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_16_8]28214757422039495251404320424342[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_16_8] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_18_10]525177702002394928224041515041432252434050517050523240430220435332525052[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_18_10] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_20_11]2226394952514041515041432656727056527020[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_20_11] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_12]414042204777282277725251[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_12] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_26_13]422431344555342452512444[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_26_13] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_48_14]21226050[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_48_14] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_32_16]5552434151504060[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_32_16][DhtmlXQ_comment15]這樣可否[/DhtmlXQ_comment15] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_18]422039492822777222244143245472705251434151507020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_18][DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_15]282277722212394912227242[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_15][DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_17]28787771[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_19]27207072426439492024414324547270525143415150414050517050[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_19] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_21]4260394920244143245443405251727060827050[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_21][DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_20]42243949201041441019494819594424[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_20] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_22]2022394922127242[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_22] [/DhtmlXQ]

聨吟客 · 发表于 2014-7-20 15:16:35

可能仍是和局 [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3299993739999999994899999999999946994299409960999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]第三节车炮士对车士象1[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_author]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_author] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]4849464737484748323040413060415160404858404151524947582847772827777027373949374749394746704046443938442438392434394934444939442441314264313352513353514153434151394924544070545243415150414050517050524240426442[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1]47673234[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment0] 红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。|||| 车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_owner]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_owner] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]484649424643393843454244454744464749464749594767[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_12]||妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_12] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3]4042585242485232483832383938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3] [DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9]26217271[/DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7]58484737482839494220414328583730525130605852434151506020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]58564140563639494224475752514041515041442442444250514243363243533252575251505262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4]5857414052514042[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4] [DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_6]282237774264777222244143245472705251434151504140505170505434404364424342343150603121424321226050[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_6] [DhtmlXQ_comment12_20]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_20] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_16_8]28214757422039495251404320424342[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_16_8] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_18_10]525177702002394928224041515041432252434050517050523240430220435332525052[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_18_10] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_20_11]2226394952514041515041432656727056527020[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_20_11] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_12]414042204777282277725251[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_12] [DhtmlXQ_comment15]這樣可否[/DhtmlXQ_comment15] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_18]422039492822777222244143245472705251434151507020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_18] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_15]282277722212394912227242[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_15] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_17]28787771[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_19]27207072426439492024414324547270525143415150414050517050[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_19] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_21]4260394920244143245443405251727060827050[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_21] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_20]42243949201041441019494819594424[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_20] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_22]2022394922127242[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_22] [DhtmlXQ_comment52] 和[/DhtmlXQ_comment52] [/DhtmlXQ]

聨吟客 · 发表于 2014-7-20 15:24:16

如果不棄仕,紅須如何調整局面取勝呢?

聨吟客 · 发表于 2014-7-20 15:31:36

13樓再修正 [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]3299993739999999994899999999999946994299409960999999999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]第三节车炮士对车士象1[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_author]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_author] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]48494647374847483230404130604151604048584041515249475828477728277770273739493747493947447040442441614264616352516353514153434151394924544070545243415150414050517050524240426442[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1]47673234[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment0] 红方有士，其威力增强，车炮士必然可胜车双象，远比车炮相容易取胜。对其他局势也是如此，车炮士对车双士则更为简易。|||| 车炮士对车双象也是古今名题。本局则是其中的一则巧局，胜法别拘一格。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_comment3]！！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_11]红方妙着弃士，采用先弃后取之法换得双象，又能逼走黑车，从而获胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_11] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_5]威胁士五进四将军，黑方无法解救，必然丢象而负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_5] [DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_owner]七分半[/DhtmlXQ_owner] [DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2]484649424643393843454244454744464749464749594767[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_10_2] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_12]||妙。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_12] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3]4042585242485232483832383938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_3] [DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9]26217271[/DhtmlXQ_move_11_26_9] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7]58484737482839494220414328583730525130605852434151506020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_7] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]58564140563639494224475752514041515041442442444250514243363243533252575251505262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4]5857414052514042[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_4] [DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_6]282237774264777222244143245472705251434151504140505170505434404364424342343150603121424321226050[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_18_6] [DhtmlXQ_comment12_20]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_20] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_16_8]28214757422039495251404320424342[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_16_8] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_18_10]525177702002394928224041515041432252434050517050523240430220435332525052[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_18_10] [DhtmlXQ_move_12_20_11]2226394952514041515041432656727056527020[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_20_11] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_12]414042204777282277725251[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_15_12] [DhtmlXQ_comment15]這樣可否[/DhtmlXQ_comment15] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_18]422039492822777222244143245472705251434151507020[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_18] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_15]282277722212394912227242[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_15] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_17]28787771[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_16_17] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_19]27207072426439492024414324547270525143415150414050517050[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_18_19] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_21]4260394920244143245443405251727060827050[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_21] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_20]42243949201041441019494819594424[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_20] [DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_22]2022394922127242[/DhtmlXQ_move_19_20_22] [DhtmlXQ_comment22]應這樣[/DhtmlXQ_comment22][DhtmlXQ_comment44]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment44] [/DhtmlXQ]

yjr123 · 发表于 2014-7-20 16:04:24

聨吟客发表于 2014-7-20 15:24
如果不棄仕,紅須如何調整局面取勝呢?

残局库着法，请自行演变：

http://lpforth.forthfreak.net/cg ... 3rE49994R43b54c43k5

当轮到红方走棋时点击“电脑代走”，轮到黑方走棋时，点击你认为最好的着法。

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