此局（碧海游弋--少子百局谱）讨论过吗？

yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-26 09:19:09

少子百局谱中的一局，有过讨论吗？很精彩，但似乎黑可和。

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[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]这样如何胜？[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 09:39:41

我記得有人貼出討論過

忘了是華工或智弈

聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 09:50:53

是華工

我在書上有註記補充兩變都紅勝
呵呵呵

但沒有17回合平炮變化

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-26 09:54:04

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[DhtmlXQ_title]对排局“碧海游弋”的着法研究范椿[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_owner]桑莫喜[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_oldowner]桑莫喜[/DhtmlXQ_oldowner]
[DhtmlXQ_comment71]如下图\[/DhtmlXQ_comment71]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]“碧海游弋”裘望禹著，朱鹤洲校，少子百局谱，蜀蓉棋艺出版社，成都，1996年，第168页。原谱着法\[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment99]红胜。依据：“胜者速胜，负者迟负的原则”，笔者将考虑黑方作为切入点，同时用结构分析的方法，从战略层面来考虑着法。在第36回合，红方走炮六平四之后的局面，如下图所示。先对下图进行局面分析，按照崔鸿传的结构分析（少子百局谱，第222页）“为中变阶段”，“擒帅头马”倒数第3个回合。红炮吃了在帅上面的黑马，就进入了最后阶段。此时，黑马必死无疑，而红方为了吃黑炮，一红炮不得不离开主战场到黑方的底线。根据这样的情况，黑方正确的战略方针应该是：弃马，抓紧时机组成新的防线，（1）黑将抢占中路控制权；（2）用黑炮阻拦红炮“回到主战场”。红方的战略方针则是针锋相对，（1）将后方的红炮开赴前线，策应在黑方底线的红炮突围，撤退到卒林线；（2）用双炮夺取黑将手中的中路控制权。如此，笔者在裘老原着法的基础上增加了一个战略阶段，即：从“中变阶段”到“残局阶段”的“过渡阶段”。局限之所在，是黑方组成新的防线与红方“破防”之争》（钱俊，象棋中局杀法，人民体育出版社，北京，1986年，第123页）基于这样的考虑，笔者拟出双方的着法如下图\[/DhtmlXQ_comment99]
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yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-26 10:39:56

chouzhouyu 发表于 2021-12-26 09:54

这个是研究必胜残局缓负的问题，意义不大。
17回合平炮既可退炮保马，又可防止底兵右移。

聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 11:15:52

yjr123 发表于 2021-12-26 10:39
这个是研究必胜残局缓负的问题，意义不大。
17回合平炮既可退炮保马，又可防止底兵右移。

看似簡單平淡的棋卻
二十幾年來無人發現 ?(以公開發表為準)

現才被余兄詮正
學習了

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-26 11:54:03

黑马基本上是死的，红方是先保证底兵活着。不会急着打马。

yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-26 13:11:35

chouzhouyu 发表于 2021-12-26 11:54
黑马基本上是死的，红方是先保证底兵活着。不会急着打马。

此局的关键就是吃马后还能够保住底兵，原局的构思就是底兵右移，最后关头被黑平炮给破解了。

wolaikk · 发表于 2021-12-26 16:06:52

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[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 16:30:04

wolaikk 发表于 2021-12-26 16:06

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yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-26 17:17:58

云库是采用穷举法，因此在规则范围内给出的着法是可信度极高的，但这个局面在云库中没有，是调用引擎经过快速计算给出的着法，不可靠。
原局构思底兵右移是个思路，那如何逼黑将上顶楼？

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-26 17:51:52

本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2021-12-26 19:15 编辑

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[DhtmlXQ_title]第086局碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 20:59:56

chouzhouyu 发表于 2021-12-26 17:51

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_40_8]5051874776704748708007018085481885751811515230407545405045055060050211105251105051415958[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_40_8][DhtmlXQ_comment40]||攔[/DhtmlXQ_comment40]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D56499%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-26 21:22:46

本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2021-12-27 17:18 编辑

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_title]第086局碧海游弋（可能和）[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_event][/DhtmlXQ_event]
[DhtmlXQ_date][/DhtmlXQ_date]
[DhtmlXQ_place][/DhtmlXQ_place]
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[DhtmlXQ_blackrating][/DhtmlXQ_blackrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_17]7078428280608262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]yjr123提出的新招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment50]兵还是不能平移。和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_40]阻止红双炮同侧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_43]这样红双炮是可同侧，但还是没办法便兵平移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_58]红还是没有效办法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_58]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_43]这样双炮虽然能同侧，但没法使老将上顶。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_46]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_46]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment10_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_47]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_36]其实可以直接这样。让红随便调整阵形。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 21:32:24

chouzhouyu 发表于 2021-12-26 21:22

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[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_9]7078428280608262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]yjr123提出的新招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_43_11]0700777280507270[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_43_11]
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[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-26 21:47:01

這樣有沒有手段
[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]第086局碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_4_52_5]708017188070494851411858[/DhtmlXQ_move_4_52_5]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_9]7078428280608262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]yjr123提出的新招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_12_43_11]0700777280507270[/DhtmlXQ_move_12_43_11]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_35_12]888672768687515077077677878050518040514159587770[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_35_12][DhtmlXQ_comment35]這樣黑不太好攔\u003F[/DhtmlXQ_comment35]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D56499%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-26 22:21:49

不错，我发到群里让他们解一下。

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-27 09:22:55

本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2021-12-27 09:30 编辑

东萍网中发现我收藏有一局同名的。经查是百花齐放第13集中的。和这局一样作为红胜，我诠作为和局后保存在那儿。好象是去年保存的
这局棋图应该是少子百局那局稍作调整的，是不是发现少子中的那局有问题而改的。
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[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_title]碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_11_3_12]8382525172710021[/DhtmlXQ_move_11_3_12]
[DhtmlXQ_move_11_2_13]6163838252517271515082816343020143630100636081806063717050510010634310204342203042437073434473744445747545467576464776774743808843417778515230404151405051615060614178744144888344437404430383135251131851520408030118280111080011102818102000105251182851522808203010203040203040413050413108073141505852425838413159583141585741406050404107094131094931305040303138484232574731214939[/DhtmlXQ_move_11_2_13]
[DhtmlXQ_move_13_23_14]3040514159584340[/DhtmlXQ_move_13_23_14]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0][fen=4P4/2c6/3k5/9/9/9/9/4K4/4C4/3C5 b - - 20 48]原谱红胜着法。[/fen]||||该局选自百花齐放第13集[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]可能这步较顽强一点。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_46]暂作和。红方没有必胜招着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_23]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_13]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_16]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_16]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_30]不变和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_27]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_5]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11_5]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_6]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_26]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_26]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner][/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-27 11:21:16

chouzhouyu 发表于 2021-12-27 09:22
东萍网中发现我收藏有一局同名的。经查是百花齐放第13集中的。和这局一样作为红胜，我诠作为和局后保存在那 ...

这个应该是"碧海游弋“局作者自己的一个修改版本，原着法和少子谱基本一致，到底是哪局在前，看2谱的出版日期。

聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-28 10:54:59

所以16樓會如何呢是勝是和?

yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-28 11:32:07

聨吟客发表于 2021-12-28 10:54
所以16樓會如何呢是勝是和?

目的是红炮左移？左移后就能够赢？
[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999990118309999999999999999519999589975999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]第086局碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist][/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D56499%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

chouzhouyu · 发表于 2021-12-28 12:00:36

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_title]第086局碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_event][/DhtmlXQ_event]
[DhtmlXQ_date][/DhtmlXQ_date]
[DhtmlXQ_place][/DhtmlXQ_place]
[DhtmlXQ_round][/DhtmlXQ_round]
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[DhtmlXQ_blackrating][/DhtmlXQ_blackrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_3_52_4]708017188070494851411858[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_52_4]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_49_5]47178070[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_49_5]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_40_6]767787805051806077706066707866467868070168784616787516115150010050511110[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_40_6]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_8_57_9]02075141[/DhtmlXQ_move_8_57_9]
[DhtmlXQ_move_6_43_10]8040514159587770[/DhtmlXQ_move_6_43_10]
[DhtmlXQ_move_6_43_11]0700777280507270[/DhtmlXQ_move_6_43_11]
[DhtmlXQ_move_6_42_12]7717070017103020[/DhtmlXQ_move_6_42_12]
[DhtmlXQ_move_6_42_13]774707005051805051415958[/DhtmlXQ_move_6_42_13]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_36_14]7270[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_36_14]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_35_15]88687270[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_35_15]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_34_16]424177785152304041614050525150605152787561658884656475056404841404030504030204035251141851520308020118380131080031300020304020305251380851520828404130504101282701215058524258484241274741316050212050403132595820284849282747482728585728215747213149593151593951314838[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_34_16]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_17]3040514159584240[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_17]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_18]7078428280608262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_18]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]yjr123提出的新招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment35]以下怎么拟招无多大关系，主要是红方思路是否行的通。就是红方双炮同时到一边下底助兵平移，黑方能否阻止红方这个思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment50]兵还是不能平移。和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment53]忽然想到红方可以这样助兵平移，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment53]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_40]阻止红双炮同侧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_43]这样双炮虽然能同侧，但没法使老将上顶。||||后来想到了双炮同时下底的思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_57]忽然想到红方可以这样助兵平移，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_43]这样红双炮还是可同侧，[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_46]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment10_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_46]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_47]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_36]其实可以直接这样。让红随便调整阵形。[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

想到了一个思路，虽然没法让黑将上顶,但双炮可同时左侧下底助兵平移，

yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-28 13:17:38

chouzhouyu 发表于 2021-12-28 12:00
想到了一个思路，虽然没法让黑将上顶,但双炮可同时左侧下底助兵平移，

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]第086局碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]787252518281515072716864020164620100626071706062818050510010624210204243203043427072424372734344737444457475454675764647767747428088427288867276868751507707505187477670474870800701808548188575181151500100505111107545[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_45_3]30405141074741514849807047175141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_45_3]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_6_42_12]7717070017103020[/DhtmlXQ_move_6_42_12]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]yjr123提出的新招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment35]以下怎么拟招无多大关系，主要是红方思路是否行的通。就是红方双炮同时到一边下底助兵平移，黑方能否阻止红方这个思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42]黑将在二路线不动了。炮在底走闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment45]双炮逼黑将上顶思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46]以下黑炮怎样应不用管。红方双炮逼将上顶，红兵再平移的思路||||黑炮如果没有机会放在将后，红兵不一定要平移，可以想法灭马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment50]兵还是不能平移。和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment53]忽然想到红方可以这样助兵平移，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment53]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_61]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]打马思路也和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]直接红兵平移思路行不通。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_46]这样红兵是无法右移的，那么只能打掉黑马了[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_40]阻止红双炮同侧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_43]这样双炮虽然能同侧，但没法使老将上顶。||||后来想到了双炮同时下底的思路。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_57]忽然想到红方可以这样助兵平移，红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_43]这样红双炮还是可同侧，[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_46]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment10_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_46]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment11_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_47]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_36]其实可以直接这样。让红随便调整阵形。[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_99]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_99]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]弈聪诠注[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D56499%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

聨吟客 · 发表于 2021-12-28 14:37:52

喔嗯

紅炮左移也勝不了

老鸽子 · 发表于 2021-12-30 11:43:32

《百花22集》余老师曾参与过，其末尾范椿所诠“对排局碧海游弋的着法研究“，是从已将红兵移至三路底线开始诠释的，演成红炮可兜底打马取胜。但不知是如何将底兵移至三路底线的。

yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-30 12:16:43

老鸽子发表于 2021-12-30 11:43
《百花22集》余老师曾参与过，其末尾范椿所诠“对排局碧海游弋的着法研究“，是从已将红兵移至三路底线开始 ...

百22谱中不是已经列出完整的原着法吗？1楼17回合黑炮5退1后红兵就可以右移了。

杨启忠 · 发表于 2021-12-30 13:35:58

可否利用棋规取胜？

杨启忠 · 发表于 2021-12-30 13:36:35

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]碧海游弋[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]这样如何胜？[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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yjr123 · 发表于 2021-12-30 13:47:23

杨启忠发表于 2021-12-30 13:35
可否利用棋规取胜？

红方一将一要抽，黑方长捉，双方不变作和。

杨启忠 · 发表于 2021-12-30 14:11:38

yjr123 发表于 2021-12-30 13:47
红方一将一要抽，黑方长捉，双方不变作和。

22回改进一下呢？

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马，来谋求吃活着的角马，考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]拦炮，必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]如改走炮5平3，则炮一退八，以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]这样如何胜？[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_36]前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马，其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马，底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_57]这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马，来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_73]打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_77]双炮无底兵则和单炮，有底兵则胜，但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住，不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_77]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]和局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]红底炮被封，红底兵难平右翼，红方一时难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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