华工象棋论坛

标题: 对排局“碧海游弋”的鉴赏和着法研究(五) [打印本页]

作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-19 21:43
标题: 对排局“碧海游弋”的鉴赏和着法研究(五)
对排局“碧海游弋”的鉴赏和着法研究(五)
范椿
      (五)赵殿忠老师和迟暮寒士认为黑方有和棋的着法
      赵殿忠老师在华工象棋论坛发了一个帖子:[排局诠正 对“碧海游弋”的研究
             赵殿忠老师认为如果第3回合黑方走炮7平9,则红方难胜。
      迟暮寒士认为:“如果第16回合黑不走炮5退5,改走炮5平7,(黑炮始终留在黑方左侧)不知红兵能否右移到三路安全位置。赵老师所提到的”第3步黑改走炮7平9,也许与我的疑惑同一”。
         以上二位的着法如下:
[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]碧海游弋((胜))[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_black])[/DhtmlXQ_black]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]787252518281515072716864020164620100626071706062818050510010624210204243203043427072424372734344737444457475454675764647767747428088424177785152304041614050525150605152787561658884656475056404841404030504030204035251141851520308020118380131080031300020304020305251380851520828404130504101282701215058524258484241274741316050212050403132595820284849282747482728585728215747213149593151593951314838[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1] 先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]原谱着法[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21] 拦炮,必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32] 如改走炮5平3,则炮一退八,以下变化同正着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment36] 前面几步红方表面想横打被困之马,其实是谋求底兵右移。现在黑方被逼升将退炮保马,底兵就可安然右移。[/DhtmlXQ_comment36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment57] 这几步红方又采用表面想打横打被困之马,来谋求进炮将底打掉黑马。[/DhtmlXQ_comment57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment73] 打黑马前的必要过门。[/DhtmlXQ_comment73]
[DhtmlXQ_comment77] 双炮无底兵则和单炮,有底兵则胜,但要防止红炮在宫处被黑炮拦住,不能进宫做杀。[/DhtmlXQ_comment77]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_2]6888[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_2]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D32148[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
          笔者认为迟暮寒士的着法正确,应该是和棋。由于迟暮寒士的着法正确,应该是和棋,所以笔者认为 赵殿忠老师的结论,应该是和棋,也是正确的。

作者: 桑莫喜    时间: 2016-10-19 22:22
本帖最后由 桑莫喜 于 2016-10-19 22:27 编辑

原局15回合局面.                                                                                            [DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_blackrating][/DhtmlXQ_blackrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_author][/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997680309999999999589999519999999947999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
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[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner][/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
      
作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-21 22:17
桑莫喜 发表于 2016-10-19 22:22
原局15回合局面.                                                                                      ...

桑莫喜先生:
    你的战略思想很精彩,值得我学习。我采用你的战略思想,结合“负者迟负”的排局规则,从第13回合开始,着法见下面的活动棋盘。你的着法红方能速胜。见下面的变着。黑方从纵向拦阻红双炮组成重炮打马。红方为了打破黑方的防线,先在黑方底线重炮保护红兵横渡,逼迫黑炮到中线守护。红炮横线拦阻黑炮,达到组成重炮打马,保护红兵横渡。由于红兵横渡成功,排局“碧海游弋”红胜成立。主要功劳是你,桑莫喜先生,我是次要的。我的着法是否成立,还有待大家讨论。  
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[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999589999529999009968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]碧海游弋((胜))[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_black])[/DhtmlXQ_black]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]787252518281515072716888[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_21_1]3040514159584240[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_21_1]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_21_2]7078428280608262[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_21_2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_21]    拦炮,必走之着。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_24]    和局。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]    红底炮被封,红底兵难平右翼,红方一时难胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_6]原谱着法[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_6]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_3]686402016462010062607170606281805051001062421020424320304342707242437273434480854445856551527343525143445152656345354434352534242515631315251310525124202545202545462526464726274741101851522728412130402131405031215060[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]改走此步,红方难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_25_4]737444457475454675764647762647458087454787675152264652516765473765053736050851524648363130403101014140505060[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_25_4]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D32148[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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[/DhtmlXQ]


作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-21 22:21
豪帅心服 发表于 2016-10-21 22:17
桑莫喜先生:
    你的战略思想很精彩,值得我学习。我采用你的战略思想,结合“负者迟负”的排局规则, ...

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999589999529999009968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_title]碧海游弋((胜))[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_black])[/DhtmlXQ_black]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]78725251828151507271686402016462010062607170606281805051001062421020424320304342707242437273434480854445856551527343525143445152656345354434352534242515631315251310525124202545202545462526464726274741101851522728412130402131405031215060[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]    拦炮,必走之着。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_24]    和局。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]    红底炮被封,红底兵难平右翼,红方一时难胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]原谱着法[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_1]3040514159584240[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_1]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_2]7078428280608262[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_2]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_25_4]737444457475454675764647762647458087454787675152264652516765473765053736050851524648363130403101014140505060[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_25_4]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D36326%26pid%3D273524%26page%3D1%26extra%3D%23pid273524[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
作者: 桑莫喜    时间: 2016-10-21 22:50
豪帅心服 发表于 2016-10-21 22:21

先生,这不是我一人的功劳,是大家探讨的功劳,另外有二种思路供参考.[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
[DhtmlXQ_title]碧海游弋((胜))[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_event][/DhtmlXQ_event]
[DhtmlXQ_date][/DhtmlXQ_date]
[DhtmlXQ_place][/DhtmlXQ_place]
[DhtmlXQ_round][/DhtmlXQ_round]
[DhtmlXQ_table][/DhtmlXQ_table]
[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_redteam][/DhtmlXQ_redteam]
[DhtmlXQ_redrating][/DhtmlXQ_redrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_black])[/DhtmlXQ_black]
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[DhtmlXQ_blackrating][/DhtmlXQ_blackrating]
[DhtmlXQ_blacktime][/DhtmlXQ_time]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999997882029999999999009999529999589968999999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]7872525182815150727168640201646201006260717060628161[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment13]红这样走是否好些.[/DhtmlXQ_comment13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_23]红这样走是否好些.[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_23]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
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[/DhtmlXQ]
的功劳.
作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-22 20:32
桑莫喜 发表于 2016-10-21 22:50
先生,这不是我一人的功劳,是大家探讨的功劳,另外有二种思路供参考.
的功劳.

谢谢你的“另外有二种思路供参考”。
我将在,对排局“碧海游弋”的鉴赏和着法研究(六)中考虑。
作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-23 16:53
桑莫喜 发表于 2016-10-21 22:50
先生,这不是我一人的功劳,是大家探讨的功劳,另外有二种思路供参考.
的功劳.

桑莫喜先生:
    很抱歉,我经过考虑认为迟暮寒士的着法正确,应该是和棋。由于迟暮寒士的着法正确,应该是和棋,所以笔者认为 赵殿忠老师的结论,应该是和棋,也是正确的。
    我们只考虑红方的战略方针很好,没有考虑黑方的战略方针,如果用迟暮寒士的着法,红方不能胜。
    着法如下;
[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_binit]9999999959999999991020999999993099999999519999589999449999999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
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[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_black])[/DhtmlXQ_black]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]202844741018747028217074181151502120505111107444[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_1]3040514159584140[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_1]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_2]1858705030405058[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_2]
[DhtmlXQ_move_2_7_3]28275058[/DhtmlXQ_move_2_7_3]
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[/DhtmlXQ]
      其中黑方炮5平8是谋和的关键着,黑方的战略方针是黑炮在中线和右侧。不管红双炮在左侧还是在右侧。就是按照迟暮寒士的着法,红方不能胜。
    “是大家探讨的功劳”,也有你的一份功劳。
     范椿
   
   

作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-23 20:18
豪帅心服 发表于 2016-10-23 16:53
桑莫喜先生:
    很抱歉,我经过考虑认为迟暮寒士的着法正确,应该是和棋。由于迟暮寒士的着法正确,应 ...

上文中的:“黑方的战略方针是黑炮在中线和右侧”。我的“右侧”是指棋图的右侧。也就是迟暮寒士说的:“黑炮始终留在黑方左侧”。
    范椿
作者: 桑莫喜    时间: 2016-10-23 21:59
本帖最后由 桑莫喜 于 2016-10-23 22:01 编辑
豪帅心服 发表于 2016-10-23 20:18
上文中的:“黑方的战略方针是黑炮在中线和右侧”。我的“右侧”是指棋图的右侧。也就是迟暮寒士说的:“ ...

先生,红方这样走可否.                                                                                     [DhtmlXQ][DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
[DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]改走此步,红方难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_6]原谱着法[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_21]    拦炮,必走之着。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_21]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
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[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
           
作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-24 21:50
桑莫喜 发表于 2016-10-23 21:59
先生,红方这样走可否.                                                                               ...

桑莫喜先生:你好!
    黑方第11回合如走炮5进1,守住中路。红方难胜。
    范椿


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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]改走此步,红方难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]
作者: 桑莫喜    时间: 2016-10-24 22:49
豪帅心服 发表于 2016-10-24 21:50
桑莫喜先生:你好!
    黑方第11回合如走炮5进1,守住中路。红方难胜。
    范椿

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]改走此步,红方难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
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[/DhtmlXQ]

作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-26 10:53
桑莫喜 发表于 2016-10-24 22:49

桑莫喜先生:你好!
    你将黑方第14回合改走将6退1,则红方走炮三退一,打死黑马,红速胜。见动态棋盘。
    范椿
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[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
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[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]改走此步,红方难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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[/DhtmlXQ]
作者: 豪帅心服    时间: 2016-10-26 10:59
豪帅心服 发表于 2016-10-26 10:53
桑莫喜先生:你好!
    你将黑方第14回合改走将6退1,则红方走炮三退一,打死黑马,红速胜。见动态棋盘 ...

[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_red]碧海游弋([/DhtmlXQ_red]
[DhtmlXQ_black])[/DhtmlXQ_black]
[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]裘望禹[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]    先暂放弃吃被禁锢的死马,来谋求吃活着的角马,考虑正确。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]改走此步,红方难胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]秀行先生[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
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